| Home recording and general music post from the archived Yabb Recording Website Message Board. Some of the info here may be outdated but many of the audio recording and home studio tips are still good. Note: The only tags I made and attempt to convert are italics, bold, center and underline. So if you see some gibberish surrounded by brackets, just ignore it.
Recording Website Archived Yabb board Post
Febuary 2001 Yabb Message Board Archive
Subject: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by FridayGirl | 03/01/01 at 22:11:22
In the last two years I've heard some newer pop performers live who can't seem to carry a tune in a bucket. Their studio recordings sound great with no vocal flaws. When they go live, they often look racked with stage fright, have poor support and bad intonation. One lead singer I heard sounded nothing like the person on the recording.
Perhaps I'm being too harsh, but it seems like the standards for professional recording artists have changed a bit. Is this true or all in my head? Can we now successfully engineer most flaws out of a singer’s voice? Is the music industry shooting itself in the foot by lowering the technical qualifications of vocalists?
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by ds | 03/01/01 at 22:12:44
I don't like the way most of the newer releases sound. It's all really bright and crisp and one-dimensional. They make the cd's really loud so your ears are sure to be irritated after 15 minutes. Everything is super compressed and digitally edited and there are no mistakes at all. In reality all bands make mistakes and very few singers are as good in the studio as they are live. It's kind of silly because mistakes are often the best way to get interesting results.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Ally | 03/01/01 at 22:14:11
I agree with DS and you too FridayGirl. I was wondering though whether we (the musicians/artists), happen to have a much more sensitive ear than the general public? I seem to hear more mistakes, tone problems in a recording or vocal performance than those who aren't into the music as we are. I have been disappointed a couple of times when I have seen an artist live and they seem out of tune through the whole performance. I try to consider that sometimes it is not their fault because the sound people don't know what they are doing, etc. Sometimes the artist cannot hear himself and that can cause the problem.:-/
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by something is haywire with the login feature | 03/03/01 at 00:07:59
With the technology currently available in major studios, my neighbor's dog could probably hold his own on a major label. I don't know how good he'd look in a tight pair of Wrangler's tho. That's probably the only thing keeping him from having a deal.
This wonderful technology, together with the powerful allure of video, has placed tremendous emphsis on the major labels to recruit "artists" who have magazine cover looks. The musical ability or uniquness of the individual has become secondary to a large extent. Here in Nashville, it is a practice that is currently biting the hands on Music Row that have been feeding it for so long now. Plummeting record sales. Imagine that.Might be some good deals on a used Land Rover out there, I dunno.
It's a cookie-cutter formula that sacrifices quality for a very generic product with slick packaging.
FridayGirl, I agree with your views. The worst vocal performance can be fixed in the studio. The proof is in the puddin' when you see someone live, provided they aren't lip-syncing;). Blame it on the sound crew...heck no.Not for a whole show. A good many of these so called "artists" are just not very good musicians. This is nothing new, but perhaps it has never been quite so noticable and commonplace as it is these days, in many types of music.
Before TNN went south, I happened to catch a show one night. It featured new and old artists, and there was a segment that had George Jones singing a tune w/ Tim McGraw. They swapped lines thruought the tune, and it was damned embarrassing.I felt bad for Tim...there was just no comparison.I have nothing against him. I've met him and he's as nice a guy as you'd ever want to meet. But the guy was out of tune, and his singing was just...well hell, it was lame as hell. To my ears, he always sounds, just...blah. Where am I going with all this? I dunno. For my money I listen to a lot of the alternative country bands. There are some great musicians out there. And ya know, some of em aren't always so great, but there is something about them that makes them sound great anyway. They sound human. Anyone who has listened to a Whiskeytown CD and liked it knows what I'm talking about. Or Ryan Adams' Heartbreaker CD. There is an energy there. A soul. Less than perfect intonation.It is palpable and real. One gets the distinct sense that an actual human has made the record. How profound. Go to www.spinner.com and d.load the player. Listen to the Alt. country channel, or any of the blues channels or indie channels. There is a treasure trove of music there. Most of it has not seen airplay anywhere on a radio, and probably never will. The part of me that is a listener is ok with that. The musician part of me wishes they could see some financial success, because of the struggles involved in making a record. I don't listen to it because it's non-mainstream. I listen because it's great music, and a breath of fresh air. It inspires me to write (or try to, anyway), and reassures me that there is a lot of great music being made out there, in spite of what the corporate music machine is rolling off the production line.
Jeez...I really didn't want to get on my soapbox here, but I guess I did. And I apologize for my ramblings. Music is something I am just very passionate about. It's my religion, and sometimes when I get going I just can't shaddup:)
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Ally | 03/03/01 at 05:14:39
Hey Mr. Guest...whoever you are. Hope you can get logged in. I'm hoping to head to Nashville next month for some R n'R and jammin. Stick around...this is a great board!
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Jon_B | 03/03/01 at 07:24:38
I completely agree with all the above posts.
There was actually an article in the 12/00-1/01 Billboard year end issue called, I believe, "Vocal Processing, How Much Is Too Much?" which dealt with this issue. Apparently it is quick & easy to edit the pitch and timing of vocals, much quicker and easier than the "old fashioned" method of doing it until you get it right, and maybe just "punching in" a difficult passage. A live performance is often not as good as the studio recording because of monitor problems or voice is not in top form, and you can't redo it, of course, But it is much, much worse if you never developed the chops to begin with. And of course, you've edited the soul out of it as Haywire mentioned.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by DanS | 03/05/01 at 10:23:55
You hit the nail on the head, Mr. Guest.
I could listen to Bonnie Raitt for days, over ANY of the new, voiceless "cuties"!!::)
Subject: Thanks!!
by FridayGirl | 03/05/01 at 12:36:21
Thanks for your posts. I enjoyed reading your opinions.
I'm a vocal student in IL and posted that question after hearing one particularly bad performance. I'm busting my BUTT with the hope of someday making a mainstream team in my church. Then I go to a club and hear some guy who doesn't know how to sing--and he getting paid for it! Its frustrating.
Ally, you make a good point about our hearing. It's true. I can pick out pitch discrepancies before most of my friends. My coach can pick them out sooner than I can. Whenever I get the chance to record in the studio my friends all request a copy of the track and think is perfect. (I'll never tell!) On the other hand, I spend 12K / year to train and I can do it better than some "pros".
Perhaps I'm approaching music from the wrong angle? I knew I shoulda scheduled that lypo and nose job! :)
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Haywire | 03/05/01 at 13:46:03
I couple weeks ago I was watching some TV,and there was some kind of bio about Shania Twain on. They showed footage of her when she was still in Canada, before she became a diva ;). I didn't even think it was her. That gal has had some major reconstruction done, especially on dem choppers. You could have driven a John Deere thru the gap in her front teeth. I dunno FridayGirl, that lipo and nose job could do wonders for yer voice ;)
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Mr. Blonde | 03/06/01 at 07:10:35
One word...
'Autotune'!
Autotune software makes it possible for a completely tone-deaf singer to sound like they have perfect pitch. This means that record companies can 'package' any little hottie tramp they want, and she'll sound fine on the radio, too.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Jon_B | 03/07/01 at 07:57:04
I think they also have software for use in live sound re-enforcement situations, but there is a problem in implementing it because, just like using the quantize function on a sequencer to clean up that drum track will move the snare hit to the next measure if you aren't fairly accurate to begin with, the note will be moved to the next semitone, or whatever, and make for an "interesting" effect, although not necessarily the one intended.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by GirlFriday (Guest) | 03/07/01 at 13:35:12
AutoTune will do the same thing in the studio that Jon_B is talking about live. I quickly discovered that if you just turn it on at the beginning of a track and let it go, it will do some very interesting things to your voice along the way. It must be tweeked. Especially if the song has a key modification or change part way through. :)
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Jon_B | 03/09/01 at 02:21:48
Girl, don't tell me that even you feel you have to use that thing! Of all the people at this site, you've probably got the best pitch. Please say you were only experimenting.
Subject: Awww. Stop! I'm Blushing...
by GirlFriday | 03/12/01 at 12:29:57
You might be surprised if you heard me. Remember, I'm still just a student and striving for perfection. I'm working very hard to overcome a lazy ear.
As part of my training, each year, I go into the studio and record a song. I take home one straight track and one gently mixed--including AutoTune. The AutoTuned version helps me to "hear" my potential. The brightness in the pitch enhances my natural tone. Its like getting a snapshot of the future. I'm injected with motivation to press forward.
Would I ever use AutoTune on a real project?? That's a big question. I don't know if you're familiar with Micheal Card. He holds the extreme position that most (or all) studio enhancements are dishonest. In fact, I think he only records live at this point. Truth be told, it is dishonest to beef up a recording. Now, if you follow this logic to its end, you'll be doing un-miked performances with backed by an accoustic guitar and some primative skins.
So the next quesion: Is dishonesty is acceptable? And if so, how much dishonesty is acceptable? Where does one draw the line?
Thoughts and opinions welcome!
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Ally | 03/12/01 at 21:17:28
Hi FridayGirl....You mentioned the dishonesty and I think it would be dependent upon the purpose or eventual goal. If you were only planning on being a Recording Artist...then I think they (record companies) would have no problem with the dishonesty. But if they were intending on developing the artist into a live performer (which is more than likely the eventual goal) they would have to make sure that artist could deliver well enough to pay them back. I find that stage presence seems to be the big seller now and that is more important than the voice. Whatever is going to make them money...that's what they will do. You will have a fantastic "performer" up against a sensational voice (without the stage presence) and guess who wins?...The "performer" wins..even though his/her voice is not so sensational. If they can generate consumer interest enough through a "dishonest" recording...then I believe they will do it. Right or wrong...they get their money. This is only my opinion...and just the way I see things in the industry right now. I believe that many artists really were not so great in the beginning..but their voices mature and improve through the experience of performance and maybe that is a factor they figure in too. :-/
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by old_dan | 03/13/01 at 01:14:20
I think you also have to make the difference between the artist that uses technology to enhance their performance and the artist that uses technology to express themselves. For instance, is Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band a dishonest album?
I don't think 'being able to do it live' should be a factor in determining an artists ability. I think it more important they have a vision and are able to express it.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Ally | 03/13/01 at 05:22:24
Hi OldDan....I agree with you that the ability to do a "live" performance should not be the standard. It should be on vision and the ability to express it as you said. I find that when I am replying in these forums...I am often answering from a point of view of my experience with record industry people. All they want is a cash flow and that's how they think. I don't profess to know an astronomical amount of knowledge concerning the music biz and it may be different with different venues of music too. I have problems with stage presence myself because I am often holding a guitar...I cannot jump around the stage. I am also "playing" the guitar and not using it for a prop as some artists do...so I really am not an appealing performer to the record industry pro's. I would really like to see the music biz be more focused on the art and not the money aspect...but that's why they call it the music "biz".
Subject: Good Point
by GirlFriday | 03/14/01 at 07:34:26
Old Dan & Ally, I completely agree. I supose there's two types of stuff you can do in a studio. Use the cool technology to express yourself artistically or use the same equipment to cover mistakes. I think I was talking more about the latter. Some of my favorite albums have really cool effects that I love--I wouldn't want it done differently.
I'm struggling with these questions as I prepare to do a project as a gift for my grandmother. I think I feel better going au-natural rather than "fixed." I'm nowhere near ready to do the cool effects.
Ally, don't knock being behind that guitar! You always have a place to put your hands. I sing ONLY and sometimes wish I had an instrument in my hands. I have plenty of soul when I'm on the mike, but never know what to do with myself during those long guitar solos. TTFN
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by ds | 03/14/01 at 17:40:05
I like singers who can be out of tune occasionally yet still hold my attention in a good way. And why are people doing this autotune stuff anyway? What in the world is the point (except of course enabling a very marketable but untalented singer to sing of course...)? Why is everyone trying to squeeze every last drop of life out of popular music? Even the world's greatest opera singers and string players make pitch mistakes on stage and in the studio, but it doesn't make any difference. I don't understand why people want to sound like machines. We invented electronic instruments to emulate people playing real instruments, and now we're trying to emulate the machinery. What gives? ::)
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Silent_Bob | 03/15/01 at 18:35:29
not only pitch correction but time correction as well. There's something called a Russian Dragon that automatically speeds up and slows down the tape playing back to match whatever is being performed in real time. That way the singer, bass player, drummer or whatever can speed up and slow down however much he wants and it will always stay in time with the music.
The worse thing is not only lousy new bands that can't perform getting signed but older more skilled bands are falling back on the same thing. I keep hearing new releases from bands in the 80s and they are so repetitive and steryl compared to their old stuff. It's like they just record a general idea of what a song should be and then make up for the lack of musicianship by adding drumloops on top of the real drums (which really sounds cheap) and cut/paste all the parts together instead of working the whole thing out in advance.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Jon_B | 03/17/01 at 22:10:18
I think this is all subjective, a matter of degree and a matter of opinion. Studios started using click tracks for the drummer I think in the 70's. If you hear a recording I made that sounds like it was made in a large hall, thats digital reverb. It's just that things are IMO, getting way out of hand. Like Ally implied, major record companies, owned by anonymous investors, many of whom don't even know their money is invested in these companies,don't care about anything but the return on their investments.
But I believe there is a huge number of people who long for real music made by actual musicians. I also play guitar while singing and don't jump around. But don't lose sight of the fact that there are a lot of people who can do neither, and what we may take for granted because we do it all the time impresses the hell out of people! And I think there is a real need for people to connect with other, imperfect yet fantastic, human beings thru music, and that those tiny imperfections that you don't notice, but may show up on a computer screen, may actually enhance that feeling. Anyway, thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by ds | 03/19/01 at 11:24:08
Yes! You gotta leave some mistakes on tape. My band just finished a cd this winter and on one song there is a real short guitar solo at the end of the song. Well, I was just goofing around on our singer's left-handed guitar making racket (I'm a bass player) and he had hit record. I went in and he was laughing and rewound the tape and played it for me and we were both like "wow, that's it!" Total accident, terrible solo, but somehow it works.
Subject: Re: Awww. Stop! I'm Blushing...
by John A | 04/01/01 at 12:33:29
[quote author=GirlFriday link=board=music1&num=983509883&start=0#13 date=03/12/01 at 12:29:57]
As part of my training, each year, I go into the studio and record a song. I take home one straight track and one gently mixed--including AutoTune. The AutoTuned version helps me to "hear" my potential. The brightness in the pitch enhances my natural tone. Its like getting a snapshot of the future. I'm injected with motivation to press forward.
Would I ever use AutoTune on a real project?? That's a big question. I don't know if you're familiar with Micheal Card. He holds the extreme position that most (or all) studio enhancements are dishonest.
So the next quesion: Is dishonesty is acceptable? And if so, how much dishonesty is acceptable? Where does one draw the line?
You're going through the same thing I went through back in my school days in the 80's - when drum machines and electronic drum sets were on more recordings than not - the question we asked ourselves as percussionists (in a classical setting) was do we need to learn this stuff? Isn't it preferable to have someone who can play it for real as opposed to having it played like, well, a machine?
As it turns out, there's work for those who just play acoustically, and there's work for the technology-oriented as well. It depends on where your interests lie.
I don't see using something like an autotuner as particularly 'dishonest' (although it seems more insidious). I remember seeing a film of David Gilmour recording Dark Side of The Moon (if I remember correctly). He sat there and played mediocre lick after mediocre lick until he hit the classic that ended up on the album. Dishonest? I don't care. It sounds great. That's what I care about as a music consumer. Of course I have a different set of standards for live performances.
I think it's good that you're becoming comfortable with new technology. Pop music and technology are always feeding off of each other. That being said, nothing beats seeing someone really just stand there and belt out a song. A singer's comfort with technology isn't going to get them a spot in a broadway show or help them if they're in the fourth band on a Tuesday night at CBGB.
The only truly dishonest thing in my book is a situation where the person who's name is on the recording as doing the singing doesn't really do the singing.
This situation reminds of sports like cycling - if someone excels as a result of a performance enhancing drug like Epogen, then either everybody has to do it (or lose) or it has to be banned so nobody can do it. No one's going to ban stuff like the autotuner so.....
Subject: Re: Awww. Stop! I'm Blushing...
by GirlFriday | 04/02/01 at 13:42:52
Jon... thanks for sharing your struggle. I am also going thru the same thing with regard to photography and someone posted this response on PhotoCritique.net
[size=1]
[/size]I think this was quite well said and applies to music as well as other forms of art.
btw - as for being a "purist", don't be. You would not believe the amount of darkroom work that some of the "Greats" have done to their photographs. I'm not saying be a sloppy photographer, I'm just saying that photography starts when you pre-visualize the picture and ends when the final "print" occurs....everything in between is justifyable, if it is your "vision" you are putting into it.
[size=1][quote author=John A link=board=music1&num=983509883&start=0#22 date=04/01/01 at 12:33:29]
This situation reminds of sports like cycling - if someone excels as a result of a performance enhancing drug like Epogen, then either everybody has to do it (or lose) or it has to be banned so nobody can do it. No one's going to ban stuff like the autotuner so.....
[/size]As a complete side note... do u do epogen?? :) I hope I never get good enough to need to consider that... oh, what am I saying? I'm still giddy after getting in my first ride of the season on Saturday!
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Jim | 04/02/01 at 21:05:51
Johnny Cash only needed reverb!
Have you ever listened to early Beatles recordings panned hard left and then hard right?
This was an interesting post. I agree with Micheal Card's premis of honesty in the studio...and I will say only this if you are packaging your music and performing live, I would think you want to be able perform it the way the listening public who pay for it expect it... having said that if you are looking to express yourself creatively and are doing studio projects with limited performances to none at all then why not take your creative vision as far as it will go, even with technology.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Crippled_Rich | 04/15/01 at 21:18:36
Anyone heard that new Daft Punk song? now THAT is too much - an entire song with the vocals having that "Cher" vocoder effect on them. Sickening.
Almost anything I hear on a top 40 radio is polished to death. Not to mention the packaging marketing and selling to the sleeping mindless masses who continue to eat this shit up.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by GirlFriday | 04/16/01 at 11:47:05
[quote author=Crippled_Rich link=board=music1&num=983509883&start=25#25 date=04/15/01 at 21:18:36]
Anyone heard that new Daft Punk song? now THAT is too much - an entire song with the vocals having that "Cher" vocoder effect on them. Sickening.
You mean that wasn't Cher's natural voice?? And all this time, I was trying to emulate her! ;D
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by pcrecord | 04/16/01 at 12:35:30
Yep !
Everything became too perfect in the last years but I can't say I don't like a pure sound, well mastered ! I rather complain on living room recording on a 4 tracks, unless there's not alot of noises, flat notes and cars passing by.
Yes it's sad, cause some cheap signer get the big contract good ones should. Why ?? Look, marketing, sex favor ?? I hope not ..
Anyway, it only meens one thing, music has become an industry and within all industry performances and profits are really important. So if i'm not up to it, I'd better play at home for fun. And if I want a ride, well I'd better run with the wheel.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Crippled_Rich | 04/19/01 at 22:09:32
Anyone remember Villi Manilli? *laughs*
If not for a tape glitch at a lip-sync, er, live show, no one would ever know!
All that did was make them (read "record companies and producers") more careful to prevent that from happening again.
No way Britney, Backstreet et al can jump around so much and sing so flawlessly. Anyone ever hear them out of breath or anything during a performance? I haven't.
OK so kill me for staying tuned in more than 5 seconds with that crap on TV. Hey I wanted to checkout their so called "live" shows. How "live" is dancing/jumping around to a recording? Some of these artists, er, I mean, performers do have bands for tours but alot of their performances are to a recording . . . oh well gotta stop me on this rant here eh? *laughs*
Oops I did it again.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Silent_Bob | 04/27/01 at 16:31:22
I guess I can understand good singers using Autotune to make a good performance tighter but the ability to program them has allowed bad singers to sing anything they want and still have it sound in tune. A classic example of this is Dave Matthews. If you listen you can hear the pitch correction working in parts of his songs. IMHO, he's the only expendable member of that band.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by Kyle Mann | 04/29/01 at 22:10:02
So the truth is out! According to a recent live-sound article in Mix Magazine, Britney Spears DOES sing for real at her concerts... That is unless she is involved in a physically strenuous dance routine, at which point, her vocals are "supplemented" by prerecorded ADAT tracks. What a shame. All this misuse of technology, just so that 13 year-old girls (and the occasional 40 year-old male) can scream loudly at at an acting troop that's running about, masquerading as musicians.
On second thought... Maybe I should get into this area of the music biz. But something tells me that it wouldn't work out. Believe me, I just don't look good in skin-tight, red-vinyl jumpsuits. Besides, I've always thought headset mics looked silly.
Subject: Re: Studio Engineering - How Much is Too Much??
by beetle | 05/23/01 at 01:12:09
I just feel bad for the kids coming up that don't know what real talent is. :(