Subject: Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Kevin |
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." - - Julius Caesar
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
Exactly..... all of the broo ha ha will make it so much easier for the citizens to lose the rest of their Constitutional Rights. What do you think will be next? Guns? Freedom of Speech? Freedom of the Press? Freedom to Assemble?
We already know that the Freedom of the Press was dealt a severe blow by the Press's own actions over the years... add on top of that the need for "security" and we're not going to know anything but what the gov't tells us. Hell, who knows what really has been going on in Afganistan. The Gulf War was a classic example of the gov't letting us know what they wanted us to know. They didn't want another Vietnam News at 10:00 War on their hands.
And guns? They've been trying to get our guns for years! I've already stated that I'm not pro hand-gun for the most part, but gun ownership is a Constitutional Right that is there to protect the people against the gov't.
Our Freedom to Assemble is always being cut back a little at a time. The security here in SLC during the Olympics was mind boggling. The airport was closed for the whole duration of the Olympics for hell's sakes! You couldn't get together in a large crowd without getting some sort of attention. Then again, I accidently carried a knife into the Ogden Federal Building and got away with it. (it's just a small knife I keep in my back pack.) Yeah, I understand the effects of 9-11 and the attention the Olympics would get. But have you been to any major event recently? It's almost not even worth it! |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Jon_B |
I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you both!  |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 25, 2002, 04:12 PM The Gulf War was a classic example of the gov't letting us know what they wanted us to know. They didn't want another Vietnam News at 10:00 War on their hands.
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
Quote from: tph801 on June 25, 2002, 07:41 PM
Quote from: JR#97 on June 25, 2002, 04:12 PM
The Gulf War was a classic example of the gov't letting us know what they wanted us to know. They didn't want another Vietnam News at 10:00 War on their hands.
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JR
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. The Gulf War WAS a media event. 24/7 coverage. Wolf Blitzer became a household word, even to those who didn't have cable TV.
I agree every power has cards they don't show, but the Gulf War played out on TV more like a military trade show. I think it wasn't so much the Government wanting to hush the media to avoid repeating history, as it was more like they wanted to control the coverage in order to promote their product and actions "Patriots are hot this year, Scuds are not". S.H was supported by the US in the 8 year war between Iraq and Iran, and suddenly he is the ugliest monster since Nero. I have trouble with that, especially since it so conveniently established a strong US presence in the Oil region, but that is just one opinion.
With the "State of Security" reality that we find ourselves in post 9/11, my question is, what would you do differently?
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EXACTLY! The Gulf War was on TV.. but everything shown had to pass multi-levels of military censorship or the material came directly from the mililtary. What we saw was what the gov't wanted us to see... Same thing with Afganistan. And even though it's on every channel 24/7, doesn't mean you're seeing the whole story... just the same censored stories over and over...
And the fact that you can't hide anything makes the situation all the more glaring... what we're being told in the US might not be what the rest of the world might be seeing. And eventually the stories are not going to mesh and questions get asked as to why they don't mesh. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a conspiricy theory kinda guy... It's more along the lines of evolution of government and civilization.
As far as State of Security goes, there really isn't anything you can do differently. You just have to prepare yourself for the trade-offs between Security and Liberty. The post by Kevin said is history going to repeat itself... well, of course it will... just on a bigger scale. |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 25, 2002, 08:13 PM
Quote from: tph801 on June 25, 2002, 07:41 PM
Quote from: JR#97 on June 25, 2002, 04:12 PM EXACTLY! The Gulf War was on TV.. but everything shown had to pass multi-levels of military censorship or the material came directly from the mililtary. What we saw was what the gov't wanted us to see...
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let me preface this by saying I am not trying to anger you or anyone else with my opinion, which doesn't really count for a lot in the whole scheme. 
If every bit of coverage during the Gulf was manipulated how would this knowledge reach you?
It wouldn't . The Government wanted to look good and right and as a hot military commodity(sp?), but they would never get away with this type of "Orwelian" deception it sounds like you are hinting at. What our country reports to us through media can be slanted, of course. A conservative affiliation will give a conservative slant, etc. But full scale complete deception? Na. If we received a completely different story than the rest of the world, the rest of the world would hip us soon enough. I used to work with a guy that thought Clinton was the Anti-Christ and he used to show me all these web sites that were chocked full of this constant flow of paranoia. He ,ofcourse, believed every word. He was deceived, but most of his deception was self induced.
You say something like all this technology can make it worse. I don't think so. the The fact that anyone with a camera can reveal the true picture to the world, and
does is a good thing. Rodney King comes immediately to mind.
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
| BTW: I did want to say that there is a type of deception which runs pretty wild in this world, but to pursue that line of discussion would turn this into a Theological thread. |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
Quote from: tph801 on June 25, 2002, 09:00 PM
BTW: I did want to say that there is a type of deception which runs pretty wild in this world, but to pursue that line of discussion would turn this into a Theological thread.
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woh.. now you've got my attention.. let's hear it!!! |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Kevin |
Nice discussion!
The point I was trying to make, using the words of old Julius is that while patriotisim is a good thing, we must stay on guard lest we give up our freedoms whilst blinded by our zeal. One only has to look at some recent policy decisions in order to be concerned. |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Quote from: Kevin on June 25, 2002, 10:01 PM
JR - Since you asked , Theologically speaking, there is a deception which is pretty pervasive in the world which tells us what we should value (money over accuracy, looks over heart/mind, top shelf material things over helping others, etc). have you ever seen the movie "The Matrix"? Same concept, only this deception reflects values which are inaccurate to God, who is all about accuracy. Babylon is a large Biblical symbol for this kind of inaccuracy, so I'll call it a Babylonian matrix. This Babylonian matrix runs so deep into our psychies that those who would attempt to reflect accuracy in living are usually mocked or viewed as weak, simple, etc. Completely backwards from what is true. What we end up with is a complete wampajawed view of our reality and what is correct in it. Scripture says that the streets of heaven are lined in gold. That doesn't mean there are all sorts of material profits to be made there, it means that our value system here is not regarded as much there. This deception (Babylonian) comes from and is placed into effect on a spiritual level, by the great deceiver, liar, etc, Devil. this deception is just that though, a deception. There is a greater Kingdom reality that is, and can be and should be realized in all of our individual identity realities. it is correct and available for tapping into, and anyone can. The result is a better life, more abundant life, absolute lethally accurate and loving marriages, relationships, greater values, ability to excel, etc, and on and on. There is only one path that opens your eyes to this reality though. Do you know what that path is? This is sort of what I am talking about, but to further this discussion we should probably take it off line here. This is a recording web site after all.
Kevin
I didn't want to get anyone angry. Sorry. I'll pipe down now. Here is a question though, if you make a political remark like the one that started this thread, what kind of feedback do you expect?
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
Quote from: tph801 on June 26, 2002, 07:12 PM
Quote from: Kevin on June 25, 2002, 10:01 PM
JR - Since you asked , Theologically speaking, there is a deception which is pretty pervasive in the world which tells us what we should value (money over accuracy, looks over heart/mind, top shelf material things over helping others, etc). have you ever seen the movie "The Matrix"? Same concept, only this deception reflects values which are inaccurate to God, who is all about accuracy. Babylon is a large Biblical symbol for this kind of inaccuracy, so I'll call it a Babylonian matrix. This Babylonian matrix runs so deep into our psychies that those who would attempt to reflect accuracy in living are usually mocked or viewed as weak, simple, etc. Completely backwards from what is true. What we end up with is a complete wampajawed view of our reality and what is correct in it. Scripture says that the streets of heaven are lined in gold. That doesn't mean there are all sorts of material profits to be made there, it means that our value system here is not regarded as much there. This deception (Babylonian) comes from and is placed into effect on a spiritual level, by the great deceiver, liar, etc, Devil. this deception is just that though, a deception. There is a greater Kingdom reality that is, and can be and should be realized in all of our individual identity realities. it is correct and available for tapping into, and anyone can. The result is a better life, more abundant life, absolute lethally accurate and loving marriages, relationships, greater values, ability to excel, etc, and on and on. There is only one path that opens your eyes to this reality though. Do you know what that path is? This is sort of what I am talking about, but to further this discussion we should probably take it off line here. This is a recording web site after all.
Kevin
I didn't want to get anyone angry. Sorry. I'll pipe down now. Here is a question though, if you make a political remark like the one that started this thread, what kind of feedback do you expect?
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I think the site needs more discussion like this... you ought to check out the Dragon Cave at www.homrecording.com it's no where near the old Smack Chat at Jim Rome.com, but it can get pretty close sometime.
I'm very interested in what you're talking about with the Babylonian Matrix stuff. Is it Scientology or something? Email me at yatahay@hotmail.com if you want to take it "outside".
On a related note, did you see that the Pledge of Allegiance was ruled Un-Constitutional today? That is one more example of small steps that are being taken to further this Nation from the principles of which it was founded... Next thing ya know, my pocket change is going to be ruled Un-Constitutional because it says "In God We Trust"... funny thing about it, is that the phrase, "..one nation under God" will probably be removed by Congress (they added it in '54, I believe) during a Congressional Session that will be opened up with guess what... a prayer... by the Congressional Chaplan.. go figure... |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Joe |
| Don't take it outside... this is good stuff... keep it here. Thanks. ~Joe |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 26, 2002, 08:25 PM
) In the beginning God created... the Hebrew word used for this is Barah which means from nothing He made things, Heavens Earth, lights, but when He gets to making things like fish grass the hHebrew word changes to Tanah(I think, I may have the wrong word) which means more like from something that is already there something is created. So like He speaks to the ocean waters, "Let there be.." and through a Quantum leap reaction from potentiality already there life bursts forth; Fish; Very cool! (Quantum physics is causing big woes to Darwin)
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Also, as an after thought to my last diatribe:
I don't want anyone to get the idea that I give the devil too much credit. Deception is the only power there. God is completely soverign and in control. The devil doesn't make us do anything. We are just knuckle heads that follow the power of suggestion and smoke and mirrors, etc. Most battles are won or lost in our own minds. |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
From a religious stand point, I'll have to agree with you 100%. I had heard where one of the translations for God was Creator.. but not Creator from nothing, but Creator of Order from Chaos. So it's good to see you bring up the specific reference! Specifically about the Quantum Physics, I agree with you 100%. I think that it is surprising sometimes how many people studying quantum mechanics and ideas of alternate universes are doing so from a Christain perspective looking for evidence of intelligent design and spitiruality or what not. Too often popular thought dismisses Christianity as anti-science.
The matter that makes up the expanding Universe has been around since the "beginning". I've heard it referred to as "intelligence". The article said something like Intelligence makes up the physical world as well as the spiritual world. And it was Christ's ability to command these Intelligences that enabled him to perform miracles.. water to wine, healing of the body, raising of the dead, etc.... Here's a reply to me from a thread that ended up being about Quantum Physics:
JR what you said about intelligences is no doubt true and not from a merely theological standpoint but also from a scientific one. The evolution of the universe is a story of primal and primitive forms of intelligence, consciousness and awareness in the form of sub atomic, atomic, molecular, and cellular materials combining and networking together over the course of millions of years to form even greater tiers and levels of awareness and consciousness and intelligence.
The universe has been conscious since day one, there is no doubt, we know this becuase even inanimate materials seems to exhibit the cognitive ability to learn. An example is an electron thats life span is a mere 14 or so seconds alone...The electron is just a small piece of information and hence intelligence......This electron must seek out and bond with another sub atomic particle inorder to extend it's life and so it does. However, the electron doesn't instinctively know that it has to do this.....rather, it learns that it needs to do this. Inotherwords,all the electrons search and search as if they are trying to escape death and then magically they find a solution: becoming a part of a network of other subatomic particles who are also bits of information and intelligence themselves. When combined they pool together their information and become more aware, more conscious, and more intelligent in the process....They call this higher level of intelligence the atom....
So, the electron found a solution and all electrons stick with that solution, because it work; consequently atoms form.....The electron has learned and from there, with the rest of their subatomic community, who has also learned and gathered more information from the electron, they move forward....Now then, this atomic community can only live so long unless it bonds with other atomic communities and so it does. Now, Atomic communities bond together and pool their information and awareness together to form an even higher level of consciouness and awareness.......They call this level of higher intelligence, consciousness and awareness the molecule.
And so this process goes on and on and on.....Different combinations of atoms and molecules are all tested.....It's really trial and error....The universe learning what works and what doesn't....but each time the universe finds something that works it keeps it and files it, because it is obviously learning....and also , each time the universe finds a combination of primitive intelligences that work it becomes more aware, more conscious, and more intelligent.
Eventually, a long long way down the road after years and years of trial and error you wind up with the cognitive skills of the human being, who is just a mere combination of primitive forms of consciouness, awareness, and intelligence pooling their skills together to form the highest level of awareness that is known to us: the human being. Every part of the human being is conscious: it's cells, it's atoms, it's molecules, they are all intelligent in their own right and have been since day one........They are just primitive forms of intelligence that are arranged such away that they can provide the foundation for human consciousness, which is nothing other than all primitive forms of consciousness working coherently and efficiently together....If you could ask the universe what it has learned since the begining of time it would show you a picture of the human being....Humans are using just about every primitive form of intelligence in the book and that is why we still don't really understand ourselves...we are the most complex thing we have ever come across....Our consciouness is just a mere, illusion or mirage created by the clever cooperation of primitive forms of intelligence......And that is the true (but short and undetailed) version of the universe.......The universe and nature are really not all about survival of the fittest......Survival of the fittest is only a small part of the story.....The majority of the success in nature doesn't come from competition but it comes from communities, bonding, and things working together to form higher levels of awareness. Furthermore, survival isn't about the individual either, it is about the community surviving....If the community doesn't survive then niether does the individual....In reality the universe is about .5% survival of the fittest and 99.5% co-operation.......and that is where you get the more appropriate term ........"Co-operative evolution."
So yah, I agree with you JR, intelligence was always there...no doubt about....and there is no doubt that every part of your body has a record of the entire universe in it......that goes back to the holographic theory.....round and round we go
Ok, now I'm long winded! And all I was trying to get to was that I like your analogy of a fish out of water....
I bet this isn't what you had in mind, was it Kev Brah!
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Kevin |
Quote:Kevin
I didn't want to get anyone angry. Sorry. I'll pipe down now. Here is a question though, if you make a political remark like the one that started this thread, what kind of feedback do you expect?
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I'm not angry at all. I find this thread fasinating! 
When I make a political remark like I did, I hoped for a deep yet friendly discussion like the one you & Chad are having. Don't feel like you have to pipe down!
Quote:I bet this isn't what you had in mind, was it Kev Brah!
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I thought it would take a more politcal bent rather than Theological but what the hey! This is fun too!
BTW, how about the San Francisco Fed court ruling on the Pledge? Now THAT is disturbing...............
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
Quote from: Kevin on June 27, 2002, 02:23 PM
[quote
BTW, how about the San Francisco Fed court ruling on the Pledge? Now THAT is disturbing...............
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very disturbing... but it's San Fran? What else would you expect from one of the more liberal areas in the country... I wouldn't put it paste them to remove the Bible from the court room. I don't think they use the Bible here in Utah... At least not when I've gone to court, which has been a lot lately!!! doh!!!
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
JR
Wow. That was a lot to take in! Yea I think that
with a universe that is so intimate there is no way it that it comes together by chance. I can't buy into the whole primordial(sp?) goo thing. We do know that all things move from order to chaos (entropy). That's like the first law of thermal dynamics I think? I believe that comes from the fall. The effects of the fall are farther reaching than just our human condition. I believe that if we all came together (in Christ) and matured to the stature to which we belong (EPH 4) we would see changes in physical properties. I believe this is the biblical plan! It all boils down to Christ! I'm not a scientist so I work on limited knowledge here, but I think I remember from high school that there was no explanation for how properties held together. ( They called it the great force, or the unknown force, or something like that? The thing that causes the protrons/neutron/electrons to cling together ) well that, my friend, would be Christ! The reason that 1+1=2, etc. It's funny but people look at Genesis and expect to see a technical manual for how things came to be. With the small amount read there you cannot get how atoms' split, how physical propoerties react, etc. So the truth you find there is more symbolic. The Earth was dark and void and the Spirit hovered over the deep...then God said... and then began filling in the things (light, sky, firmament, etc)(paraphrase). The question I used to ask was why didn't He just make it complete? Surely He could! But there were lessons to be learned there which works on multi levels. One big one is that our lives are void and dark and the only way to fill that is through Him. You notice how in the story of creation it is night then morning, one day? It's not light then dark, one day. We tend to see it the otherway. Light then dark, but that is not true. This in itself is speaking of Christ. Our darkness is brought to light by Him, and then the end. That is one reason why all the "Left Behind, 11th hour, rapture tribulation" doctrine being taught today is innacurate, misunderstood and unbiblical (but that is a whole other sidetrack) in my estimation. Christ brings us from dark to light. I don't think we should talk end things w/o centering it on this technology(Christ). People want to get their escatology from Tim LaHaye novels and the evening news. But I'm off track now. That one was a freebee, and probably a whole other topic of disscussion .
Anyway, in the creation story it also speaks of a firmament that is above the earth and sky where the birds fly. Some believe this was a layer of water as part of our atmosphere(sp?). This would explain a lot about how people lived longer back then. No U.V. rays. The air would be misty and condusive to stustaining life, etc. Also when God flooded the earth this thing bursting could cause that. As this flooding accured all living things would scatter up hill. The larger slower things would be killed lower on the surface than the smaller agile things. This would be why we must dig deeper to find bigger bones. Then we come up with carbon dating and pass that off as truth. I remember reading about a hair comb dug up in Kentucky and carbon dated back like 50 million years or something. Can we rely on carbon dating? I think the further science advances the closer it will come to God. Just like Quantum mechanics, etc. I think that was the point I was making... |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 27, 2002, 03:19 AM From a religious stand point, I'll have to agree with you 100%. I had heard where one of the translations for God was Creator.. but not Creator from nothing, but Creator of Order from Chaos.
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There are a lot of other names God reveals, i.e. Yaweh tsidsenew(sp?) which means God the righteous, or Jehovah Jira (provision), Jehovah Rafa(healer), Jehovah Shalomn(sp?)(peace), YAWEH Nice(our defender, banner), El Shadai (all mighty), etc.
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: JR#97 |
What's the "Left Behind, 11th hour, rapture tribulation" doctrine and Tim LaHaye stuff you mentioned? Scripture reference? I can't believe you actually got me to get the Bible down and look up 2 Chronicles... next thing ya know, I might start reading it and start going to church again!
It amazes me how more and more there is scientific proof of Biblical things, Christian Doctorine, etc. If you haven't already, there is a series of videos that I did the mastering for called "Ancient Secrets of the Bible - Did it Happen" that goes into scientific proof of many of the things that happened in the Bible.. the flood, the parting of the red sea, the ark, etc. Very interesting. Both views are presented. Anywho, the scientific explaination of the flood corolates with what you were saying about the firmermant in the sky. It also goes into explaination on how the firmermant was brought down.. what triggered it. Plate tectonics, the layer of water under the earth's crust, where did all the water go... the video series was distributed by Bridgestone Multimedia. I miss that job sometimes....
I had read an article that talked about the purpose of the firmermant that said it was a "shield". That in the beginning, the light wasn't from the sun, but it was the light of Christ.. and it would kill us had it not been filtered by the firmerment. Then when the sun and earth were at a distance or position that the earth could be lit and warmed by the sun, that the firmerment came down. All of course coinciding with the wickedness of the people, etc. I'm not sure if I buy into that, but I read it somewhere.
I could go on about The Fall and Creation, the Trinity, etc. but we'll have to take that "outside". I think we've scared everybody away.
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: unbrainwashed |
Praise the Lord and pass the poisoned Koolaid  |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 27, 2002, 05:33 PM What's the "Left Behind, 11th hour, rapture tribulation" doctrine and Tim LaHaye stuff you mentioned? Scripture reference?
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Jim |
| Hey - TPH I sent you a Instant Message. |
Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Jim |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 28, 2002, 03:42 PM
Hey JR - I just tried to send you one, but I got this....
JR could not be messaged. The usernames are either invalid, or they have you on their ignore list.
Ingore list?!?!?!?
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: old_dan |
Quote from: Jim on June 28, 2002, 06:17 PM
oops.  There is a small bug in the im system. The pound sign in not recongnized. I have a fix all ready and should put it in this weekend. Then JR can get im'ed too.
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: tph801 |
Dan - I just sent a message to JR so I guess it works ok now.
JR
Some interesting reads on the premillenial are:
"Are We Living in the End Times" by Tim Lahaye
and
"Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey
Some interesting reads on PostMillenial are:
"Paradise Restored" and "Days of Vengance" by David Chilton
and
"The Last Days According to Jesus" by R.C. Spraul
I may have misspelled the names.
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Subject: Re:Is history doomed to repeat itself?
Posted by: Joe |
Quote from: JR#97 on June 27, 2002, 03:16 PM | very disturbing... but it's San Fran? What else would you expect from one of the more liberal areas in the country... I wouldn't put it paste them to remove the Bible from the court room. I don't think they use the Bible here in Utah... At least not when I've gone to court, which has been a lot lately!!! doh!!! |
They use the Book of Mormon (BOM) instead of the Bible in Utah don't they... lol. Just kidding. ~Joe
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