Subject: New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
Thx for having a look at this guys!
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
I question all morals but remain silent,
I don’t know what is really going on,
Are these masks, assumed faces,
For my protection or for someone else?
Have I been trained too?
My rebellion will only work in myth
Again “reality” seems to dictate this
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
Do the masks protect a hidden cause
Protect the world from myself and my thoughts
Are my thoughts merely another twisted truth
Is society at fault or are we the real cause
Who is right, who is wrong
Whose fault is it all?
Whose fault is it all?
Someday this too will fall
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
All planned out somehow
What will my truth do?
Is there a god, are you god too / I wish I knew
My life is a joke that I don’t get
My ignorance tormented bliss
Should I run away or follow
Do I even need to bother
I feel it won’t matter yet
I feel I don’t matter yet
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
Why no feedback guys? cmon you can do better than that!  |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: songstress51 |
hiya John F...is this the John F I know?
anyways, this is the slowest moving lyric board on the net. Don't get discouraged, the critiques will come.
I have read all of the lyrics you have put up here. The subject matters have been very deep and I think you are a promising writer. Do you have music for these lyrics yet?
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
 Thanks for responding!
I'm not sure if I'm the John F you know, depends which one you know..... 
As for music, I have been working with a band, but I'm open to other collaboration. If you're looking for something recorded, I can't help you as of yet. If you'd be interested in making music, that could be great...... |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: songstress51 |
I will assume you aren't the John F I know.
I unfortunately, am so backed up at the moment, I wouldn't want to commit to anything new. However, there are several very talented folks here that might be thrilled for the op to do a collab with you.
All you have to do is post on Collaborators Corner.
Good luck with the songs. I think they have potential!
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: Richard_Wilcox |
John,
I have printed down your three posts with a view to making a comment or two in the vain hope I might be able to help. Seeing that there have been critiques on the other two I am left to try and help with this one.
The comments made elsewhere on structure, rhyme positions, meter, etc apply equally to this lyric, without structure you can't make music. Seems little point re-iterating what has already been eloquently stated.
The real problem, for me, is that I can't see what you are trying to say, I see confusion but can't answer how why or even where. Consequently I am confused and uninspired.
Perhaps it should have been called "Masks"
I do see some lines well worth keeping and working on for example
Quote:I question all morals but remain silent,
I don’t know what is really going on,
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The first line is interesting, but then you spoil it by saying you don't know what is going on, perhaps the second line should be along the lines of "whatever I think doesn't matter anyway." If you are going for the "I can't alter fate" line you might as well do it in spades.
What I think you should do with this is write the best lines down in your little notebook that you should always have with you and think about what you are trying to say and re-use the lines when you have a place for them.
As a Dylan fan I appreciate that sometimes meanings are not apparent on first reading, but each line in a Dylan song is so constructed to make the listener think, for example "With your sheet-metal memory of Cannery Row" That line, obscure as it is, makes the listener ask himself at least 2 questions. To write this kind of stuff needs one hell of an appetite for reading as well because Dylan is littered with references from novels, poets, history, the Bible, I can't even touch how much he's read, let alone remember it 
Of course, somebody will come along now and understand your words precisely and I will look like an idiot.
Somethings never change 
Good luck
Richard
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: snabbu |
John
You should understand that a proper critique of a lyric takes time.
This time is given freely. There is only so much time in a day. Preference will always be given to writers who participate in the process with other peoples songs.
I looked at your work briefly the day it was posted, noted it’s lack of form meter rhyme scheme, hook etc. I decided it wasn’t a song so therefore there was no point in me critiquing it .
Cheers
Gary |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
What keeps it from being a song?
Heres a rewrite anyhow, I hope its better.
Lost (c) 2002 John Fettes
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
I question all morals but remain silent,
What will happen if I point out the wrongs
It seems rebellion will only work in myth
Again “reality” seems to dictate this
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
Do the masks protect a hidden cause
Shelter the world from my true thoughts
Are my thoughts merely another twisted truth
Will I dance when my strings are pulled?
Who is right, who is wrong
Whose fault is it all?
Whose fault is it all?
Someday this too will fall
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
What will my truth do?
Is there a god, are you god too
My life is a joke that I don’t get
My ignorance tormented bliss
Should I run away or follow
Do I even need to bother
I feel it won’t matter yet
I feel I don’t matter yet
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
|
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: franna |
John
It is becoming a song now.
I assume your structure is:
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Bridge
Chorus
Then ??
Chorus
May I suggest you do a chorus, 2 verses, chorus, bridge, chorus, 2 verses (re-write the ??-part into 2 verses) and end with a chorus.
You obviously have the gift of the "word', so I think you should be able to redo the odd part into 2 verses.
Good luck
Francois |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
Heres the rewrite......sorry it took so long. Feedback would be great!
Lost
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
I question all morals but remain silent,
What will happen if I point out the wrongs
The world is predictable unless I change it
Frightened by the thought I move along
Unchanged the world spins away
With the silence unbroken we’ll never be free
It seems rebellion will only work in myth
Again “reality” seems to dictate this
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
Who is right, who is wrong
Whose fault is it all?
Whose fault is it all?
Someday this too will fall
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
Do the masks protect a hidden cause
Shelter the world from my true thoughts
Are my thoughts merely another twisted truth
What will happen if I break the silence – break the rules
What will my truth do?
Is there a god, are you god too
I feel it won’t matter yet
I feel I don’t matter yet
I think I might be someday
Something more than I was today
The sinner can be a perfect being inside
A shallow attempt to fit in makes it hide
|
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: songstress51 |
Quote:John
You should understand that a proper critique of a lyric takes time.
This time is given freely. There is only so much time in a day. Preference will always be given to writers who participate in the process with other peoples songs.
I looked at your work briefly the day it was posted, noted it’s lack of form meter rhyme scheme, hook etc. I decided it wasn’t a song so therefore there was no point in me critiquing it .
Cheers
Gary |
Snabbu, I would like to say that I would find it very discouraging to come back and post on a board that gave me a critique like this.
Just because someone learning the craft, (which in my opinion, should never stop), doesn't follow exact form doesn't mean it isn't a song, or couldn't be.
Of course, this is just my opinion. Feel free to debate the issue if you please!
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: franna |
John
I think the structure is still not quite right. There is now two "odd" parts. The one is:
"Who is right, who ........"
and the other:
"What will my truth do ......"
Will these both be a bridge? Will they be the same melody and beat - wise? Two bridges (especially if they are different will probably not work well in a song. Please listen to Phil Collins' "Think Twice" to hear how a bridge in a song must be handled.
Maybe just re-think this and try and keep the chorus / verse combinations the same. Depending on how it sound, the bridge could be inserted before a chorus or before a verse. The melodic effect of going from the bridge to the next part must however be good to work well. That's where Mr Collins does it exactly right!
Hope it helps
Francois |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
| I don't quite understand......should I lose one of the bridges then? |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: franna |
John
Hey, that's your decision!
However, I would say the following structure could work:
Chorus, Verse, Verse. Chorus, Verse, Bridge. Verse. Chorus
You could leave out the last verse before the last chorus. If you use 4 verses, you may have to repeat one of the verses, or write a new fourth verse.
Mine is only a suggestion. Maybe someone like Gary / James / Tom should give their comments.
Francois |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: Richard_Wilcox |
Quote:Snabbu, I would like to say that I would find it very discouraging to come back and post on a board that gave me a critique like this.
Just because someone learning the craft, (which in my opinion, should never stop), doesn't follow exact form doesn't mean it isn't a song, or couldn't be.
Of course, this is just my opinion. Feel free to debate the issue if you please!
|
I take up your offer to debate. 
Critiques are funny animals. We only do them if we some value in what is already there and if we think we can help. As I have already said even learners should be thinking about the construction of other people's songs, make a comment beyond "that's good" or "that's rubbish" and it all helps.
Anybody asking for a critique is asking for a favour and should at least read what has been said recently, otherwise people like Gary are merely caught in the rut of repeating themselves over and over again.
Empathy plays a part too!
Then JohnF says
Quote:| Why no feedback guys? cmon you can do better than that! |
Before John posted that he should have asked himself, did we all think this was perfect? did we think it was redeemable? Instead he merely thought it was his right to take our time up.
I haven't checked, John, but have you a) read and understood critiques *not* about your work and b) done a critique yourself, and c) actually acted on a critique given.
Considering the time Gary (Snabbu) has spent on critiques I thought his answer was extremely polite. 
Richard
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: songstress51 |
The point I was tryin to make to Sabbu, Richard, is, that if you are going to take the time to write anything, why not take the time to spend a few syllables going over the "whys" instead of just saying it isn't a song...I think if you notice it was 3 days before JohnF asked if anyone was going to critique. I fully understand the frustration of hoping to get help on something and not hearing anything back. Boards begin to get very "clannish" and sometimes unintentionally drive good people away by not explaining things correctly. I would rather have no response than an explanation that my song is not a song worthy of critique. Also, a song is not a song without the music anyways. Its only a lyric.
I personally don't like to critique songs, because I don't really feel qualified. I am not a professional songwriter. I do, however, know that even if you are more experienced than the average "Joe", you still have lots to learn. If you ever think you know everything, then you have closed yourself to any possibility of ever becoming a better writer.
I will agree with you all that this lyric needs further development, but I don't think it is so bad that its not worthy of some positive reinforcement.
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: snabbu |
Quote from: songstress51 on September 28, 2002, 05:58 PM
The point I was tryin to make to Sabbu, Richard, is, that if you are going to take the time to write anything, why not take the time to spend a few syllables going over the "whys" instead of just saying it isn't a song...
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I did I said something along the lines of it has no structure no rhyme scheme and no meter so as far as I could see it was not a song. So I did say why it was not a song.
Quote from: songstress51 on September 28, 2002, 05:58 PM
I think if you notice it was 3 days before JohnF asked if anyone was going to critique. I fully understand the frustration of hoping to get help on something and not hearing anything back.
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Yes and during that period a critique of Johns song “Truth” was in train which included five posts from me discussing such items as form etc.
Quote from: songstress51 on September 28, 2002, 05:58 PM
I personally don't like to critique songs, because I don't really feel qualified. I am not a professional songwriter. I do, however, know that even if you are more experienced than the average "Joe", you still have lots to learn. If you ever think you know everything, then you have closed yourself to any possibility of ever becoming a better writer.
I will agree with you all that this lyric needs further development, but I don't think it is so bad that its not worthy of some positive reinforcement.
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I think your comments about clannishness, close mindedness etc are regrettable.
Cheers
Gary |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: Richard_Wilcox |
Quote from: songstress51 on September 28, 2002, 05:58 PM
The point I was tryin to make to Sabbu, Richard, is, that if you are going to take the time to write anything, why not take the time to spend a few syllables going over the "whys" instead of just saying it isn't a song...I think if you notice it was 3 days before JohnF asked if anyone was going to critique. I fully understand the frustration of hoping to get help on something and not hearing anything back. Boards begin to get very "clannish" and sometimes unintentionally drive good people away by not explaining things correctly. I would rather have no response than an explanation that my song is not a song worthy of critique. Also, a song is not a song without the music anyways. Its only a lyric.
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I agree, I am falling into bad habits, words alone do not a song make
I also note I made some comments about these lyrics about the same time as JohnF made his plea.
Quote:| I personally don't like to critique songs, because I don't really feel qualified. I am not a professional songwriter. I do, however, know that even if you are more experienced than the average "Joe", you still have lots to learn. If you ever think you know everything, then you have closed yourself to any possibility of ever becoming a better writer. |
If we all followed the above sentiment I don't think there would be any critiques on the net at all. That sure would solve the problem 
I do not like doing critiques, but I try, I sure do try! I am also painfully aware that I make exactly the same mistakes that I point out in other's lyrics.
If I wanted a professional songwriter to critique one of my songs I'd probably have to pay. Not necessarily sure that professional songwriters do better critiques anyway.
Maybe the best thing is that somebody compiles a list of "do's and dont's" with regard to lyric/songwriting which can stay up at this forum for everybody to read before they post. That would also save time for those that are prepared to do a critique. (Note to anybody that wants to ignore the rules : you'd better be prepared to explain why, in each case, the lyric/song works when you have broken those rules -which it might well do)
Note to JohnF : When you are ready post another lyric, this was never personal. But perhaps one at a time, rather than 3 at once, which should alleviate the problem of no comments.
Further note : They are not "rules" but basics that every songwriter should be aware of.
Regards
Richard
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Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: songstress51 |
Snabbu,
You are just not GETTING what I am saying....
How do you know it has no Meter, you haven't heard the MUSIC yet. Its not a SONG until its complete with music and lyrics. Am I right about this? It is just a lyric.
I am not trying to affront you personally, I am just trying to point out that new people to the board might just get the wrong impression about you from a post like that. I think I might have....
I know you are VERY active on this section of the board. And I am not bashing you for that, I promise. I think it is great that you can do that to help. You have given me some good critique on that one lyric that I have been rewriting for about 3 months now.
Peace?
KAP |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: JohnF |
| Sorry to have caused all this debate. ah well. I'm sorry I posted too many lyrics at once. I won't do it again. |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: SS454 |
| What if no one responded to any other persons critique, but only to the subject at hand. That would be great, cause this is getting out of hand. |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: songstress51 |
I am in total agreement that guidelines for posting songs should be a part of this board.
Critique at least one for every one you put up.
I don't put up many lyrics here, cause at the moment I'm not writing too many. I am not here trying to learn how to critique anyways. I am here to learn how to record. So I guess the best solution is for me to keep my mouth closed and not to say what I think...  |
Subject: Re:New Song "Lost"
Posted by: Richard_Wilcox |
Quote from: songstress51 on September 30, 2002, 04:23 AM
I am in total agreement that guidelines for posting songs should be a part of this board.
Critique at least one for every one you put up.
I don't put up many lyrics here, cause at the moment I'm not writing too many. I am not here trying to learn how to critique anyways. I am here to learn how to record. So I guess the best solution is for me to keep my mouth closed and not to say what I think...
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You're wrong, you should make a critique, you should ask questions when you are unsure. All critiques are only "in my humble opinion" I would be upset if anybody actually acted without thinking on something I said. Wouldn't be the first time the rest of the world has disagreed with me on something
BTW When I talked about "guidelines" I meant the sort of guidelines you find regarding song writing, not posting. the sort of tips and hints you find at the start of any song writing book. Any writer that hasn't read a song writing book should add one or two to their Xmas list now. 
Regards
Richard
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