Subject: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Jt |
So, I'm just wondering...
Are Lyric Critique boards passe?
I admit, I haven't been very active here of late, either posting or critiquing, But I'm begining to feel lyric critiquing is almost a dead art.
I've been lurking alot lately, and this board is... well... quiet 
The Write Stuff is very active, but it seems like a "feel good" place - very few critques, just alot of "atta-boys". Same with the JPF board. If that's what we're after - ok.
It's just that I remember when I started here, and on Glade's board - posting and critiquing - how much I grew. I miss those days.
Now, you need to post music with the lyric. Which is very cool, but by then the lyric is pretty much set in stone. So what's the point? Post it on the Freedom Exchange, and get comments on the production/music. The lyric's done.
I don't know... just pondering about the future of the Freedom Exchange and lyric boards in general...
Anybody have any thoughts?
Sigh, I'm in a bad mood... 
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Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Steve_Biederman |
Cheer up Jt. I dunno. I know what you mean about the back pat cliques. I think one reason for that is friendships develop over time and as you get more familiar with people you have a better feel for where their going with an idea than you do when critiquing work of someone unfamiliar. I haven't been around much for quite a while anywhere just cause I'm busy with work and family. I have about 30+ songs I'd love to record but it's hard to find time. Then, if I do find time, when do I find time for critiquing lyrics of other folks. If I do get something done that I'd like feedback on, I'm obligated (out of common courtesy) to answer each reply I get and then I feel guilty because now I don't have time to give critiques in return without being accused by the good wife (and for good reason) that I've become an internet addict and am neglecting her and stuff that needs to be done around the house, etc, etc, etc. How can a guy or gal win at that game, ha ha?
As far as having to post music with everything, I don't see that much music being posted, save for a few people. At least not in ratio. Your statement that by time music or at least a recording is done, the lyric is set pretty much in stone, I have to disagree with personally. I'm continuing to make changes to my latest effort, THE POET INSIDE OF HER and I've had the music for it since it's inception. I can't use everyone's suggestions because the song would be completely rewritten word for word practically if I did and the whole initial concept would be lost. I do appreciate all that I recieve from others and use what I deem appropriate knowing my baby better than anyone else. If I made every change mentioned I'd have to do several versions as well cause often, more than one person has a substitution suggestion for the same word or phrase but each one of them suggests different words to substitute. Now, when I do have the music composed which I almost always do right from the start, the rhythm, meter, and the way the vocal phrasing places the stresses IS set in stone simply because OF the music. But I often get great suggestions (usually one or two from you when we're both around at the same time) for a word change or two that yes, I actually do use. I do find that many of the suggestions offered would work great if there was no music in mind and I was strictly a lyricist wanting to shop a piece around to prospective composers. But by the time I post a lyric I know what the music is and where the stresses lie as well as how the vocal will be phrased so many suggestions recieved won't work in context with the whole thing. I still sincerely appreciate the time and effort taken by the critic to carefully consider and comment on what I've posted. Another aspect of the "already been recorded so its pretty well set in stone" mindframe is that I do an instumental mix of everything I record and all I have to do to tweak the lyric is to write in the changes and redo the vocal. So everything is open to change even though I've done one recording. I personally just find it better to post complete recordings of songs so the full context is there. The instrumental arrangement and the performance alone can fill in a lot of void to the emotional impact of a song that seems to be missing something when viewed strictly on the printed page as a dry lyric. If anything, I have found from personal experience that a lot of folks won't bother checking out a post if music is included because they make the same misjudgement that its a waste of time to critique at that point because the lyric is set in stone and another reason given is that they don't know enough about music to give a coherent critique. Heck, they buy records based on what they like and don't and they change the channel on the radio dial or keep listening based on what moves or irritates them everyday of the year. Since that is the kind of critique that really matters for selling records, it's the best feedback I can get cause that's how its done in the real world. If someone has a helpful suggestion for a word or phrase change or maybe what is lacking in getting the meaning across, that's a real boon to the author. But by the same token, if they merely say Man, I really love this or conversely, sorry but it just didn't do anything for me, in consideration of either the lyric, music, arrangement, performance or whatever, that is equally important. At least it is for me. So don't be down, bro. Truth be told, I get more out of your thoughtful critiques than I do from those I recieve from almost anyone. While I appreciate all help offered, I always get excited when I see that you've taken time to comment on something of mine and am eager to see what your impressions and suggestions are. And dat be da trufe. Take care and don't give it up. You are a valuable commodity aroung parts like these. I personally know a few others who feel the same concerning the venerable JT.
Steverino |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Hobes |
Hi JT,
I agree. I try to post critiques when I can, but sometimes I just don't have much to say. Either the song isn't worth salvaging or I've run out of steam..I don't know...
I think some of it has to do with the involvement of the host. Dan has been MIA for some time. Stan hangs at JPF and Chad is as sporadic as I am. Shayne promotes his board heavily and works hard to keep his contacts/members involved. One of the things that attracted me to TWS were the members and the activity of the board. But most of those folks are JPF'ers now and you've got to go there if you want to see what's up with them.
Boards have turnover. If this one is to get going, it needs Dan Gray to help kick start it again.
I also think you're right about the critiquing side of things. Part of that may be that so few people actually feel qualified to actually critique. I remember on TWS, I think you, DGR and I were about the only ones who really tore into songs and made the extra effort... But you can only do that for so long. Especially when the person who wrote the song doesn't appreciate the time and effort you've taken or refuses to see a potential problem.
I LOVE to get called on the carpet!! It makes me think about what I've written. If there's a potential flaw, I can fix it before we record it. Or maybe scrap it altogether... I learned as much from doing critiques as from being critiqued!
As to posting music - I generally post the songs because I think people might like to hear what the thing eventually ended up sounding like. I posted "Stones" about a year ago. For those that remember commenting on it, I think it's only right that they get the opportunity to hear what we ended up with...
And we HAVE changed songs before thanks to good input from folks.
I'm going to try to pick a lyric board and stay with it for a week at a time. Then go to a different board. I find it difficult to maintain going to several (FIVE!) at a time... Maybe that's an easier way to do it.
I don't know. But I DO know that I ain't no back slapper! I try to shoot straight as possible with a little bit of tact on the side. Don't despair. Keep doing what you do. You'll get more respect from writing a thoughtful critique than a simple "great job".
hobes |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: chad |
hey John et al,
I really miss those days you're referring to. I think it has a lot to do with timing though (face it...we've all changed our habits a little bit since 9-11). Personally, I've been a bit out of the loop because I haven't replaced a computer at home and only have the op to log on from work.
Also... lint begets lint. When this or anyboard gets humming along, it feeds off itself. I've been really busy and haven't done near the amount of writing as I used to, but I have thought about posting a lyric and then pop in and see that it's slow and for some reason have second thoughts.
I'm also of the school - like yourself - that you've got to put back what you take out. And since I'm worried about not being able to...I don't end up posting...and then more and more time passes. As time passes I definitely get a bit rusty with critiquing. I'm in the best mindset to critique when I'm personally writing well (and that seems so remote these days).
A few months ago I was starting to get active again and attracted a few collaboration offers. Problem was (or I told myself anyway) that I already have a huge backlog of started but still incomplete collaborations. I'm in a bit of a funk because I haven't had the time to take some music lessons.
Anyway, don't stop doing what you're doing. I'm going to try and make it a point to frequent the board. In fact I'm going to post now and I'll feel obligated to get back.
take care,
chad
P.S. Does anyone know how to change your log in information?
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Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Jt |
Hi Guys,
Thanks for replying. I'm feeling in a much better mood now - its been a very good day 
Steve: I'm sorry if this sounded as if it was pointed towards you. You're always prolific, helpful and a genuine guy. I appreciate your feedback, and always enjoy your posts - especially with music. I loved your stream of concious reply here - wow, that was a mouthful  And I agree with you - I haven't had the time lately to post or critique here or on other boards. So I probably had no business even saying what I did.
One of these days, I hope we find the time to collaborate. Your taste and mine are very similar. Oh, and I know what you mean about the wife thinking you've become an internet addict if you say "yeah, I'll be right up honey" at 10:00 pm, and then crawl into bed at midnight.... 
Hobart: You do call 'em as you see them. Your posts are always worth a second or third read. And definately multiple listens when you post a song! I've learned a ton from you. And the Wendel's board (besides having some great songs) is one of the most entertaining music sites on the web.
I think you hit the nail on the head... these boards do ebb and flow. And they turnover. Dan's absence is probably a factor - but more of a factor is the exodus, or lack of presence, of the some of the old timers (myself included, not you). But, I guess we weren't old timers back then - so maybe we need some of the young blood to get more involved so they can become old timers... How to do that? How to respark interest in the FE? I dunno.
Chad: You and I are kind of in the same boat. I know you have young kids, and a job and a life, and its hard to dedicate time to a pursuit like this. I sure do miss those long ICQ chats we used to have. Can't do that at work anymore 
Oh, and you can change your login info by clicking on the "profile" icon at the top of this page....
Anyway, thanks to you guys, and to Dan Gray. And thanks to RobertK, who's probably given me more guidence and helpful advice than anyone. I sure wish he could have won the Millionare game - maybe he would have sponsored a lyric critiquing consortium 
I gotta run. But I'm not about to leave this board. I'll try to give more input - so I guess, there you have it.
John
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Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: old_dan |
Hey Jt, I can't compare this board to any other songwriting board. Never been to any of them. :( But I've noticed a big dropoff here too. The problem is when someone new comes here, posts a lyric or two, gets no response and then leaves.
I'd like to do more but I've got 6 other boards to take care of not to mention a website. ~sigh~. I haven't heard from DanG in awhile either 
And about the song being done when the musics done, I agree. At least for me. I almost always do the lyrics first.
Maybe when I get the review program, site design and a new pc recording article done I'll have some time to post more. Course then it'll probably be something else......... I guarantee that none of you spend as much time on the net as I. ;D I had no idea there were folks who went to bed as early as 12. |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Steve_Biederman |
JT old buddy! I didn't take anything you said as as directed toward me or anyone else. Just augmenting your thoughts on the subject with my own point of view and nothing more. Yeah, as I told you before, I'd definately be interested in working with you.
Steve |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Liana |
Hi guys, I sit here reading and my head is starting to throb... I really miss regular visits and my music desperately. I must agree that since sep 11 everything has changed so very much. I was so depressed for months, I tried to spend my time with my family and got heavily involved with my job. I have been unwell for so long now, I dont know yet what it feels like to be happy and write or sing...but I do appreciate that I have the world compared to many others.. I have finally gone and had the surgery I was putting off, scared to death that I would not be able to sing again afterwards. Its only been a week and I cant smell, taste or hear 100percent yet, the doctor says I can try to sing in 4 weeks...until then Im still in limbo. Sadly I have lost contact with all my friends here and elsewhere, I think they thought I gave up on them...but my challenges were big. I really pray that I can come back here with some new lyrics and musical ideas in a month or so, until then, I wont even install my audio software...just dont have the courage...it depresses me.
I think that this board and others like it are a powerful tool for those who use it wisely and with good intention. It doesnt matter that we dont post as often, we all do have lives that are busy, we all have commitments...but sharing what we have across the world and beyondd all boundaries is the biggest gift I have received towards my music in my life....it has been more gratifying and personal, so I hope everyone continues to do what they can, when they can, because every single line makes a difference, and every word leads to another...take care ...I hope to write soon, time to rest up  |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Gunstreet |
I agree there isn't always enough critiquing on these boards. Maybe it's because the person critiquing is afraid their comments will sound stupid or that the lyric poster will get offended. I worry that my comments will sound harsh sometimes, due to the lack of inflection in just "words on a page". I write like I talk and without inflection it's easy for my words to be misunderstood. I'm trying harder to avoid that pitfall, but it's tough.
Lyric critiquing is very important, but a song is a whole lot more than just the lyrics. For me, "style" is as equally important as the lyrics. I am the performer of my own material so I have my own style to be concerned with. Sometimes this lends to what might be considered a "bad lyrical choice", but in reality, it's exactly what I wanted to convey.
I have never posted any of my own lyrics (lyrics which I am the performer), I have only posted experimental songs. I would like to post my lyrics but without the music and without an understanding of my genre and style, I just don't think the message of the lyrics would be complete.
Lyric boards are helpful, however, because I do learn more from critiquing than from anything else. These forums are difficult though, because every lyric is it's own entity and should be judged as such. But that's hard to do. Since we all have our own ideas of what's "good" and we all have our own musical tastes, we have to try to take each song in context of what it's trying to be and sometimes it's hard to tell.
A "full song" is easier to critique, because you can usually tell what genre it's supposed to be, whether it's male or female, fast or slow, and all the other little things in a song that gives it shape. With all these components, a lyric that didn't seem to work can work perfectly and vice versa.
So I don't know, I have fun and that's good enough for me!
Gunstreet
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Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: silverkat |
 JT: My .02 cents: It's getting harder and harder to keep up with all the boards. TWS, This one, JPF, Tunesmith. Songwriters Org., NSAI board, etc. I generally post and critique over at JPF, but it's getting a might bit crowded. And, there seems to be a clique of writers who only critique each other's work. There is a lot of back patting going on at TWS. What's the point of that? To say "great tune"? Most of the time, the critic! doesn''t even say why it 's great. There is positive criticism, as well, you know. I have been helped with some critiques of my work, and for that I am thankful to all those who responded. One of the problems with JPF,as I see it, is the format of the board, where you have to bring up the lyric and scan down the list to see responses, and , unless you do that, you never know if you have had a response back. At least at TWS, you can see the replies outlined under the post. I also wonder how many lyrics that are posted ever get music put to them, and how many ever get rewritten based on the critiques that are given. It sometimes, seems futile..And, maybe, that's why posts here and elsewhere are shrinking...I have recently joined the Advanced Lyricwriters Group on Yahoo, that one is small but, generally responsive if you don't mind your email getting filled up... Interestingly, until today, I haven;t posted on this board for over a year...../Glen |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: RobertK |
Good to see some of the veteran crowd still popping in now and then.
Glen's right about the proliferation of boards and it being hard to keep up with all of them.
I tried to gravitate only to this board because for awhile it definitely was the best, if not the busiest. Lord knows I tried my share of tricks to get things humming here.
I tried one posting over at JPF, but didn't really see too much happening over there that was solid or instructional. Sort of a TWS-lite, but with a more solid moderator and slightly better crowd. :-/
TWS has been futile for a long time now - a bunch of cliques and back-slapping, and the interminable people who think they're a lot better than they truly are, some posting five lyrics a week and critiquing one a month, if that.
Lately, I've put a toe in the water over at Tunesmith, but I'm not seeing too much different over there than at JPF, except for a few different names and (thankfully) the more arrogant and piggish of some of the other boards haven't found there way over there yet. 
Still, there are obvious cliques and some big fish in little ponds that don't really review other people except on the rare occasion, and then mostly to get a dig in or two rather than truly come up with something worth hearing. 
And boy is it aggravating when something is obviously wrong and easily correctable, yet you have the person's three or four buddies slapping him/her on the back and saying "don't change a thing"!
Since Sept 11 this board seems to have pretty much slowed to a crawl.
In my own three or so years of board reviewing, I'm come to the point where I usually only do the songs that already have music because I've come to find that it's awful hard and for the most part futile to discuss lyrics alone - the most mundane and barely serviceable lyrics are hitting the Top 10 of all genres all the time, so what good does it do to dissect and analyze, for the most part?
Once you hear the whole package of music and words, then it's a bit clearer as to what works and what doesn't. But the bottom line is, if you're a performer and your star has risen, you can literally put anything out there and it seems to sell.
One things that kills the reviewing spirit too is that many boards have guys that are pretty good at the whole package thing and never really want to rewrite - they just want to put it out there and hope somebody picks up on it or at least gives them a stroke.
And invariably, those are the same guys that seldom deign to give critiques to others, and when they do, it's of the snidest or most cursory kind of overview.
What I'm finding out through experience from several boards now is basically that the vast majority of people that OCCASIONALLY would be of help in critiquing due to a modicum of talent and discernment are invariably only truly into their own work and little world of chums.
The next dominant minority are those of fair-to-middling ability, but apparently are just there making nice-nice to everybody, god bless them.
And then the remainder are those without any true business of creating anything that someone else might want to hear, but demand their right to clog of the 'virtual airwaves' anyway.
It's almost as if there's a core of writers on each board that truly need another outlet that would serve as the next plateau, as it were, in this process of making the transition from total amateur songwriting to semi-pro. 
I don't have the answer to where/when/how that might come about, especially outside of the environs of the geographical epicenters of the industry. 
Hence I still occasionally show up and try my best at this level.
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Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: Hobes |
You are absolutely right fellas. Why I think I'm gonna go over to some of them sites tonight and just be brutally frank. Do me some HARD CORE critiquing and analyzin' as an exercise in writing and perception.
First I think I'll hit JPF. Then maybe TWS and Muse... Songwriting.org and... sheesh...who's got that kind of time? I got frozen pizzas to nosh for crissakes!
Maybe all of us should just hole up here and send out e-mails to everyone and tell 'em if they honestly want our opinion on something, they're gonna have to come to TFE!!!!!
Yeah. That's the ticket.
hobes |
Subject: Re: Lyric boards?
Posted by: RobertK |
Hobes, that's so funny you mentioned the "holin' up here and if they want our view, let 'em come over to TFE". That had been my intent last year, to post here and nowhere else, figuring that the more serious writers would pick up on it and eventually all gravitate to this site.
Many have, but...
Alas, I think the desire for wider exposure and the easy back-rubs given by the crowds at the other boards have proven too tempting for most!
Anyway, I still consider this board my "home base" and will stick it out no matter what the traffic, for as long as Dan keeps giving his time to keep the board up.
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